Uncertainty about the place of Muslims in Australia has been a source of public anxiety at times, particularly in the past decade. The recent recurrence of the 'Burqa debate' is a sign of this. To gain an informed perspective on how Australian Muslims contend with media misconceptions and public unease, Kristoffer McKay interviewed Mohammed El-Leissy of the Islamic Council of Victoria.

Where were you born?

I was born in Melbourne. My parents are from Egypt. They’ve been here about 40 years. I grew up in Canberra.

So you call Australia home?

Yes, absolutely.

Do you call anywhere else home? Or do you think of home as being a single place?

This question comes up a lot. I actually went to Egypt for the first time about 4 months ago, I’m 25 now. It’s always hard because you know, growing up in Australia, since 2001 when I was seventeen and that stuff happened. Up until 2001 Australia was definitely home, I never questioned that, until I think when a lot of the anti-Islamic sentiment appeared in the media and talkback radio in particular, for example the recent discussion on banning the Burqa in Australia and Pauline Hanson not wanting to sell her house to a Muslim.

It’s really hard, even though you are born as an Australian, you start to question, “is this really home?” There’s a house and then there’s a home. I can say without a doubt that Australia’s a house, but is it a home? How many people agree with Pauline Hanson? Do I belong here? I would love to belong here, but do people accept me?

It’s sometimes hard to listen to talkback radio and think to myself “yeah I feel totally loved and welcome.” Deep down I know that Australia is home, I mean I’ve been to Mecca, the heart of Islam with 3 million other Muslims on the pilgrimage, and I still longed for Australia and whenever people asked me where I was from I would quite proudly say Australia.

Conversely, it was great to go to Egypt because all of a sudden you can walk down the street and feel like you’re not being discriminated against or judged. So, even though I couldn’t speak the language I still felt like I was at home because I was accepted due to the fact that I was part of the majority. This is the big problem the Muslims in Australia face – Muslims are desperate to belong, I think everyone is desperate to belong, but it’s hard when you’re so desperate for that belonging but you’ve got the abusive father that ignores you. If you’re not feeling the love, it’s hard.

Do you, generally speaking, feel accepted as an Australian?

I think in situations like being at the footy, I feel totally Australian, I mean total strangers hug each other, and also the bushfires where we were all affected. However when it comes to negative issues about Muslims that are dominated in the mainstream, it’s very hard then to avoid that sort of side-glance from the general public.

Would you prefer people see you as solely an Australian? Or would you rather this identification to include your religious identity as well?

That’s an interesting question. Especially because it brings up a contrast between the John Howard approach, which I support, you can tell Susan that (laughs), which was sold rather poorly and he came off as a rather racist person. He probably is, but I think the intention was right. On the other side, I have some left-wing/PC friends and they’re all about my Muslim identity and supporting minorities.

This is actually something I’ve become quite disdained about, why do they always have to see me like this? They’re always bringing it up in conversation saying stuff like “oh you’re Muslim can you eat this?” or “Let’s not go to a pub because you’re Muslim” so I feel pretty much like a freak. I think the John Howard approach, and why he quite wrongly hated the multiculturalism approach, is because of this sort of behaviour, meaning the tendency to treat people like they were “special” – like we need a special Olympics for Muslims in Australia [laughs].

So, the John Howard approach was like “we’re all Australian, you know, you eat your halal meat and go to your little mosque" and at the end of the day we’re all Australian- when I meet you, you act like you’re Australian and you don’t want to blow me up [laughs]. Finally, I think there are two schools of thought on this matter: some Muslims don’t want to be treated as special as it’s patronising. For me, I simply wanted to be treated as an individual, whilst at the same time be respected for my freedom of choice when it comes to religious practice. So I definitely don’t want to be seen as the Muslim candidate, or the Muslim bus driver etc. I want to be seen as me, a person.

What do you value? Do Muslims have different values to “mainstream” Australians?

I value individualism – people’s right to be whoever and whatever they want to be. I value my freedom to practice my religion without breaking the law.

How much do you think the media has contributed to the misconceptions of Muslims that are evident in Australian society?

It’s hard to judge public perception, I mean I knew a guy who wanted, after September 11, to go to war and kill the terrorists, and he announced this right in front of me knowing that I was a Muslim, however he was a great bloke and we were best friends. I think it comes down to the connections made between Muslims and terrorists. This guy clearly didn’t hate Muslims because we were mates, however in other situations in the general public, the confusion between Muslims and terrorists can occur.

This misconception undoubtedly is encouraged by the media. They have a massive influence. They play a huge part, because they bring these issues to our mind. So, I think the perception about Muslims is that we live in a very strict, narrow minded, medieval system and that we are backwards and treat women badly and that we want to take over the world….. I think it is also important to note that the media is assisted by the fact most Australians have a lack of experience with Muslims. Muslims make up 1.5% of the Australian population, so the chance of people meeting you is quite minimal. So the media is huge and also politicians. I think politicians can capitalise on Muslims.

Speaking of the media, I’ve heard of the ‘big scary Umma’, the big community which can come together at the click of a finger and take over the world when the time is right. How scared should everyone be?

[Laughs] That’s very good Kris. It’s an interesting concept. I think it’s funny because all humans obviously have connections on some level, you know I could talk about a white Anglo Christian Umma, because you look for example at the Burqa debate, which starts in Belgium, automatically makes its way to France and then on to Australia. Are these really separate entities or are they connected by a common brotherhood?

Let’s not fool ourselves; of course there is a Muslim sense of brotherhood in the world, probably which gets pushed more by things like being attacked as a whole or things like being put on the front page. But I don’t think it’s anything more than a common thread that connects all of us. I certainly know that Muslims can’t even organise a family barbeque without somebody forgetting something, so to say that there’s a big possible new world order is highly unlikely. [Laughs] I don’t deny that Muslims are very community orientated, but to somehow think that Muslims are taking over is laughable.

The notion that someone’s coming to get us is I guess a human thing that results from fear of losing one’s identity. There may be Muslims who would love a caliphate to occur however this is not a majority view.

The veil, I know this is a massive topic and we could speak about it for hours. What does it stand for? Is it a sign of individuality, a fashion statement, male oppression or even something else?

Firstly, the Quran does not say to put the veil on so men can control you. I always wonder why Westerners have made the assumption of this. All the females in my family do it purely out of love and devotion to God. I think people think, “oh my god it’s hideous, how can someone choose to wear that?” I think it can be used as a form of oppression but that’s not why it’s there. Anything can be used for female oppression, for example a mini-skirt, but I don’t think that’s why women put it on.

What would your reaction be if the Australian government was to enforce laws similar to those imposed in Europe?

I would be very disappointed about that. My stepmother wears the Burqa and when I walk down the street with her it’s confronting, I hate it, you can feel the heat, but that’s her level of faith, she believes it to be part of her faith and my father has never tried to impose on that. My sister, same thing, she wasn’t wearing it and no one cared, one day she decided to start wearing it. Now to come and rip that off her, do you have the right to do that? And for example, if Muslim men are forcing females to wear it well isn’t that just as bad as you forcing them not to wear it? Men have no right to tell women what to wear full stop.

I understand it is confronting, but I find dogs confronting, I absolutely hate dogs, I think dogs should be banned, seriously I was at the park yesterday and I just love to sit there and lie on the grass and look at the sky and I can’t do this because there are all these dogs who come and bark at me and I get petrified by that. But I’m not going to go around calling for the ban of dogs. This isn’t viable, because dogs are an important part of people’s lives. I’ve got this little saying I coined the other day to put things in perspective; their Burqa is louder than their bite, because it looks scary but it’s not actually affecting you, unlike a dog. I mean it’s scary; it’s confronting and sure even Darth Vader has more personality than a Burqa [Laughs].

But seriously, where does all this stop? For Muslims it raises the alarm that ‘this is a war on Islam’ because when you got hard on us for terrorism, fine, that was a group of Muslims who actually killed people, they were breaking the law – but the Burqa’s not. The other thing is - and this shows how spineless these people are - women, in Islam, are the least problematic people, they’re not the ones in gangs, they’re not the ones blowing up people. But the fact that you start your crusade on what you see as voiceless, weak women, shows that you yourself [referring to the senator] are a pathetic person, because he himself is oppressing the weakest link and someone who has done absolutely nothing wrong.

I think there is a real disregard for how these women feel, for example my step mother has retreated to the house because this treatment has caused serious mental and health problems for her. She doesn’t want to go out on the street anymore because she feels there is now a conflict because she can’t be herself and wear her funny little religious symbol. So, I was very disappointed with the announcement, especially when non-Muslim men start going off at women, I’m like ‘you’re the most pathetic weak human being I have ever come across’ because Muslim women are the least problematic, they have done nothing wrong.

By Kristoffer Mckay

Mohammed El-leissy is the Special Projects & Community Outreach leader for the Islamic Council of Victoria.

Kristoffer Mckay is a third year undergraduate student majoring in European Studies and Linguistics at Monash University. He plans on completing further research relating to social integration at postgraduate level next year.